'That's in the Script?!' Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder & the 'Hacks' Showrunners Talk Season 4 Surprises

"Hacks" cast members Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, Megan Stalter all partook in a press conference ahead of the premiere of the show's packed fourth season, as did creators/producers/writers/showrunners Jen Statsky, Lucia Aniello, and Paul W. Downs – the latter also starring as Jimmy, Deborah's beleaguered agent and one of the few adults in the room.

Season 3 ended with comedian Deborah Vance, a septuagenarian given a gig as a late-night talk show host. Her new job is part of a second-act career revival made possible by the smart, contemporary sensibilities of writer Ava Daniels. But the plum opportunity is soured when the ambitious Ava blackmails Deborah into giving her the job of the show's head writer – a role Deborah believes is a poor fit for Ava's sensibilities.

Season 4 takes off as the talk show takes shape months before its premiere date. From the first there's a razor-wire taut tension between the two, but they forge forward none the less... at least, Ava does; Deborah seeks to sabotage and undermine her every step of the way, despite the risks her conduct poses to her revitalized career. Deborah's obstructions cover the gamut, from arguing over who to hire for the writers room to vetoing perfectly good jokes last-minute in order to make Ava look bad... and those are only the PG-rated methods she resorts to. Things get wildly inappropriate really quickly; to avoid spoilers, let's just say that HR becomes inextricably involved in the mess. Adding spark, the series makes a return to Las Vegas (site of Deborah's long-running residency) for an episode that centers around an ill-advised writers' retreat.

Smart and Einbinder participated in the press day in person, as did Statsky, Aniello, and Downs, with Stalter beaming in via video call. The account below is edited for length, content, and clarity.

Smart leapt in with a punning observation, saying, "It's sort of a bucket list to pretend to be a talk show host," a nod to the season's commentary on sexism and ageism in late-night television. But, Smart went on to note, it's a gig that might be a little too much for her character. "You know, it's sort of, I don't know, 'Be careful what you wish for,'" she said. "I mean, it's the pressure [that] gets to her. Definitely."

Downs spoke about the direction in which Season 4 goes, and the professional opportunities it affords Deborah and Ava. "We always knew we wanted Deborah to get her white whale, to get this late-night show," he recounted, "but, like with stand-up, we've always said that this is a show about the wig-off moments – you know, the behind-the-curtain moments.

"There is a lot of, like, behind-the-scenes drama and comedy that happens at a late-night show," Downs added, "So it was really fun to explore that and also to write what you know as writers writing a comedy show."

Added Aniello, "It was also a fun, fresh challenge to be able to write the two of them in an office setting, you know, so whether they're arguing about coffee makers or whether they're arguing about HR, or hiring, it just feels fun to put them in that scenario.... it just felt like a really fun, fresh place in addition to the actual getting a show off the ground. And then, of course, dealing with the fallout of the blackmail."

Answering a journalist's question about the "notion that women in the workplace always become adversaries," Aniello said, "I think they came into the season already having their confrontation. It wasn't necessarily like, 'Oh, once they're in the office now, they're going to start feuding.' I think if anything, the relationship they have already coming into the season kind of grows and changes as a result of being official coworkers, which is, like, they've always worked together, but now it feels like they are coworkers, which weirdly feels different because HR is involved.

"I think that there's something kind of interesting in the dynamic playing out," Aniello went on to say, "for us to watch these people who create art together. What happens when you put that in an official work setting? What is it like for Deborah and Ava to then have employees of their own, and how do they approach those relationships as well as with each other? I think that's something we've actually all encountered, because we – at least, three of us – met, not in a professional manner, we just were making comedy in New York. So for us to now be showrunning together, it's a different skill set."

"I've always found it a little bit insulting that people have this idea that women can't get along, and that men do," Smart put in. "I remember a million years ago when I was doing 'Designing Women,' people used to ask us that constantly: 'Wow. What's it like on the set with four women? Oh, boy, that must be... ohhhh.' I said, 'Do you guys ask the "Barney Miller" cast that question?' I mean, I find that really bizarre."

"Because the Barney Miller cast, they feud," Downs quipped. "They were pulling each other's hair out."

As much representation as the show gives strong, smart women, it also lets the queer community see itself incisively reflected. When a journalist cited a scene set after an uncomfortable dinner "between Deborah and Damien [Mark Indelicato] when he explains to her the difference between LA gays and Vegas gays," Statsky jumped in with, "Well you've been to [West Hollywood queer nightclub] The Abbey, right?

"Yeah, that was a very fun episode to write," Statsky continued, saying, "we have this incredible cast of supporting characters who honestly could all each have their own show because they're all that talented and funny. Mark is exactly like that, and so it's very fun for us to give Mark more of a moment, and also see him with Deborah. And it's also the very funny premise of, like, 'What if you have to go out to dinner with your boss, who is terrifying to you?' We have a lot of queer writers, and that kind of came out of a discussion."

In response to a question that had been sent in virtually about the show's inclusion of "multiple queer character" in a time of "so much discrimination against the queer community," Einbinder called that level of representation "very, very meaningful.

"And we always have" represented the queer community, Einbinder, who identifies as bisexual, went on to add. "And I'm sure that that will always be a part of all of our work. I mean, Jean's first acting role, 'Summer at Bluefish Cove,' was a lesbian play."

"Started my whole career," Smart affirmed. "Yeah. Kissin' a girl."

"It's important now more than ever," Einbinder asserted. "And I really do think in the face of such horrendous fascist crackdown on our community, it's really important for people to be able to see themselves, see themselves fully, and see themselves in a way that is fully realized. And so, thank you, guys," Einbinder added, addressing the showrunners.

With the new season peeling back more layers to Deborah and Ava than ever, Smart, too, gave kudos to the writers. "It continually amazes me that they are able to find more and more for us," she said, "and also keep this dynamic going, because I think that's a lot of the fun for the audience is this relationship, and the fact that they've been able to keep that the way they have... my biggest fear after the first season was that, 'Well now that they're kind of friendly and working together, is that going to be as much fun" as "to sort of see them butting heads?"

No worries there, given the turn that ended Season 3! Deborah and Ava have mixed as well as oil and water from the show's very first episode, but a growing affection between the characters has helped propel the show's emotional arc. It's that same affection, now roughed up and accented with feelings of betrayal and rage, that keeps friction at the show's comedic core, and that's obvious as soon as Season 4 begins.

"It's amazing to me that it continues in the same vein," Smart added, "and just gets better and better. And meaner, and nastier."

"A lot of people ask me, like, 'Has Ava turned bad?'" Einbinder said. "No, I think she has to kind of speak Deborah's language. I think her hand has been kind of forced. And... I think she still, like, retains that spirit, but just kind of has to play ball."

Added Einbinder: "It's been really cool to get to play the adversarial thing." But, she noted, that's all for the benefit of the camera: "When we have to fight, Lucia calls cut and we're just like..." She mimed a hug. "But it is fun to, yeah, kind of traverse this windy road with the two of them."

One of the new season's especially fresh twists is an arc in which Einbinder's Ava becomes embroiled in a polyamorous relationship with a married straight couple. Hannah Einbinder praised the show's intimacy coordinator, adding that "the other actors in the scene [were] so wonderful.

"We got to know each other and really got comfortable..." Einbinder began.

"I bet you did," Smart interjected without missing a beat.

"...with one another beforehand," Einbinder continued, unfazed, "and they're such, such great actors and really, really cool people. And I was just lucky to be in a really safe environment. I have a lot of queer people around me, a lot of women around me.

"Our sex scenes on 'Hacks' are always written with a comedic element to them," Einbinder added. "Nothing is gratuitous at all. There's always a comedic angle, which I enjoy. And also, I will say I have found it incredibly liberating to be nude on camera. It has actually been healing in many ways. I think it has helped me to also – it's quite simple when you say it this way – but like, to just normalize the female form or the form that I have. This form takes many genders, of course, but it's like, a man or like a cis guy takes his shirt off and that's cool. What actually is stopping that from applying to women? Just a puritanical societal code. What do any of these codes even mean? So, I have started to think about that and deconstruct that."

"Obviously I'm not going to take my frickin' shirt off right now, but you know what I mean?" Einbinder continued. "It's like, time and a place.... But it has helped me to feel more cool and free. Just like being like, 'Yeah, this is like my body, and I'm alive.' I looked at actresses like Mikey Madison and Emma Stone. I've heard them talk about it in a similar way, and they kind of have similar experiences where it does feel freeing and empowering. So, a good environment and beautiful writing... and, obviously, you're at work, it's a job. Like, my boys are around me, all the camera guys. It's cool."

"I didn't even know about that scene," Smart broke in. "How did I not know about that scene?"

"It was in the script!" Statsky said.

"Not the original form of the script! No!" Smart exclaimed. "Oh, I'd have remembered that."

"I don't think..." Einbinder started, only for Smart to interrupt with, "At the table read?!"

"I don't think..." Einbinder tried again.

"It's in script!" Statsky reiterated.

"At the table read?!" Smart demanded again.

"It's in the script," Einbinder tried to explain, "but it's...what it actually ends up being, isn't..."

"It says they're hooking up," Aniello confirmed. "Yeah."

"But it ended up being..." Einbinder started once more.

"I say hook up all the time," Smart exclaimed. "I don't mean that. 'Do you want to hook up on Saturday?' What!?"

"That is kind of like one of the generational divides in terms," Einbinder said. "Hook up. Yeah."

"I had no idea," Smart said, amazed. "I had no idea. I can't wait."

"All we can say is, 'Hey, after watching 'White Lotus' last night, it's Max," moderator Pete Hammond put in. "It's all Max."

"It's frickin' Skinamax!" Einbinder quipped. "I'm sorry. Whatever."

"Hacks" Season 4 premieres April 10 on Max.